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  #1  
Old 01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
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Sidewinder/Tekin 8100 - need help/suggestions

Ok, so "originally" I had a HXT-4400kv motor and a 22T MLST pinion in my recoil and I was somewhat pleased with the results. After a chat with one of the other racers (who also owns a recoil) he thought that a higher KV brushless motor would make my car a lot faster overall. The track isnt large enough to take advantage of the 4400.

So I swapped in a Tekin 8100kv and 9T micro RS4 pinion and ran it Saturday on the weekend. What a joke that turned out to be. I was getting passed by a stock Recoil brushed motor setup. It was very flat to say the least.

So after seeing the poor performance we bench tested a known good working matched 1300nimh pack (same guy from above) and we had the exact same result, no top end power, no screaming. I have recently built some battery packs on my own, so we wanted to elminate the power source as a possible issue of the lack of power.

Since there was no change, it could have been a setting with the sidewinder and I have adjusted my radio to full endpoints and rebound the TH/REV/NEU settings to the esc again.

So ... suggestions are open from anyone reading this.

Setup:

Tekin 8100kv - 9T pinion (Mrs4)
Sidewinder Micro (w/o casing), latest firmware
Motor timing set to 20 (stock 10)
Dx3r TH expo to 150%

I'am @ work currently. When I get home I would be happy to post up some screen cap images of what I see on the Sidewinder setup screen.

If all my settings appear to be fine, either the motor has a defect or (b) it means the ESC is defective possibly. I'am considering emailing both Castle as well as Tekin to see if any has heard of known issues with Tekin 8100 + sidewinder combos.

(btw - the friend listed above runs a M-25 and dynamite 9200 and 1300nimh and has amazing results)



thanks for any help
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Last edited by Nerve; 01-26-2009 at 01:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2009, 03:06 PM
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as an update...

I emailed Tekin and emailed Castle, and BOTH replied within about 2-5minutes of receiving my email .......

Both basically said I shouldn't be having an issue, but I am.

I have some stuff to check out from emailing the two of them and I will report back the findings here and to them. Then I can find out what is wrong with my settings.
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
Did you re-set your esc after all your changes?
Did you follow ALL the manufacturer ESC set-up info?

But not feeling like I have all the info needed to answer, an easy way to "check what's up" is to plug your motor into your buddy's car and viceversa.
Yeah not really possible to plug it into my buddys car until the weekend when we race again.

Here is a copy of what I forwarded to Castle / Tekin:

I have two sidewinders, one with a Castle 6800kv and one with a Tekin 8100kv. Both Sidewinders have been updated to the latest firmware version and both were set back to the default settings. The only feature that might be slightly different is EPA's on the radios, which I really only adjust steering throw anyways. One car uses a DX2.0 (the one w/ the 6800) and my car is a DX3r with an 8100. Both radios/escs were reset to full throttle, full brake, neutral after removing the usb update link cable from the speed control.

After removing both motors from the cars and listening solely to the motor spinning at full throttle under zero load, I have determined through elimination process that the audible "whine" coming from the 6800kv is a far greater whine then the audible whine coming from the 8100. There was another person present in the room while I was doing this to confirm what I was hearing was correct. I have also swapped the motors to the other speed control to "possibly" rule out a defective speed control. I came up with the exact same audible findings after swapping motors.

If the 6800 whine that I hear is truly a "6800" then I believe the 8100 I received is really the 5500 performance version (or lower?) and that is not what I had paid for. I do not have a video camera because I would really like to show you what I "hear" between these two setups.



Anyone feel that my comparison test was a joke?

I think it is the best I could come up with at home at least.

Lets see what castle / tekin say come morning.
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  #4  
Old 01-27-2009, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
So you LIED??
Lied? Ummm, nope you are wrong.

My friend doesn't live near me, nor do I hang out with him outside of the track or a crawling event. He is just an r/c buddy.

If you look through my build thread in my signature, you will see that I have two Recoil cars (and two micro rs4s). One is for my girlfriend to use and the other is mine. Therefore having two cars, two speed controls, two (different) motors, two radios etc etc.

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Old 01-27-2009, 12:09 PM
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So what about the HXT motor weren't you happy about? You mention that the track isn't large enough to take advantage of the HXT, yet this fellow racer recommends a far smaller, higher kv motor in order to make your car faster? I thought you were racing on a small track that required more torque and precision?

First, let's assume the motor isn't defective. Start by adjusting the throttle endpoint on the Spekky remote to 125 and then reset the ESC. Then check all motor and battery connections for a cold solder joint. Also, make sure the motor screws aren't too long and contacting the rotor. I know I had that problem with my RS4-MT. If doing all that and swapping ESC's and/or battery packs doesn't solve the problem, I believe that means you have a defective motor.

Regarding Sidewinder settings, keep 'em default to rule that out. Make sure LVC is turned off, maybe the motor is pulling too much current and the battery voltage is dropping too low? You did say that it sounded slower free-spinning, but I'm just trying to think of every possibility.

I just can't think of anything else that would be causing the problem. But unless this race is going to be under 5 minutes, I can't see that small high-kv motor being happy at all. Would simply gearing up the HXT cure your need for speed? A 24 tooth M-LST pinion is the largest that will fit without dremeling the motor mount, but will require removal of the rear diff case to be installed.
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Last edited by kavvika; 01-27-2009 at 12:12 PM.
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2009, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kavvika View Post
So what about the HXT motor weren't you happy about? You mention that the track isn't large enough to take advantage of the HXT, yet this fellow racer recommends a far smaller, higher kv motor in order to make your car faster? I thought you were racing on a small track that required more torque and precision?
It's not that I wasn't happy with the HXT motor, it was a honestly a really nice smooth clean setup. With a 22T it was a good suggestion. It's just that it was decided that performance could be increased using a higher kv motor. Honestly Kav, if there was video (which there isn't) of his dyn-9200kv & M25 combo vs the two setups I have tried, you would be blown away by it. That is the whole reason I got a Recoil..lol. Yeah I thought more torque and precision might have been the way to go as well.

It would be possible to have it brought to the track, but for someone to video tape it going around is around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavvika View Post
First, let's assume the motor isn't defective. Start by adjusting the throttle endpoint on the Spekky remote to 125 and then reset the ESC. Then check all motor and battery connections for a cold solder joint. Also, make sure the motor screws aren't too long and contacting the rotor. I know I had that problem with my RS4-MT. If doing all that and swapping ESC's and/or battery packs doesn't solve the problem, I believe that means you have a defective motor.
I believe as of last night the TH was set to 120% both ways after a relearn. I know I had it at 150% with no improvement. Also there were no motor screws present in both motor cases, due to them being held in my hand.

Now the battery still might be an issue, however @ the track with a good known 100% working pack, there was no improvement. But that was pre-testing as of last night. However, I did plug in my cheapbatterypacks.com built MicroRS4 pack (known good), no different. Minus maybe a 100% fresh charge.

(too many variables I know)..

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavvika View Post
Regarding Sidewinder settings, keep 'em default to rule that out. Make sure LVC is turned off, maybe the motor is pulling too much current and the battery voltage is dropping too low? You did say that it sounded slower free-spinning, but I'm just trying to think of every possibility.
I appreciate it. LVC was turned off the last time I looked and should also be off by defaults as well? Yeah, audible "motor noise" doesn't sound like it is even reaching close to is "potential". Where as the Castle 6800 sounded like it was going to shoot to the moon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kavvika View Post
I just can't think of anything else that would be causing the problem. But unless this race is going to be under 5 minutes, I can't see that small high-kv motor being happy at all. Would simply gearing up the HXT cure your need for speed? A 24 tooth M-LST pinion is the largest that will fit without dremeling the motor mount, but will require removal of the rear diff case to be installed.
Yeah all of our races are around 5minutes in length. I can try putting the HXT and a 23T pinion back in after all this tweaking I have done to see if performance is gained at all from previous setup.

I'll see what I can do to try and get a video clip made up using a digital camera...
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Last edited by Nerve; 01-27-2009 at 02:28 PM.
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  #7  
Old 01-27-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
Then instead of the song and dance why didn't you just say "yeah, I tried the motor in my girlfriends car....." instead of suggesting the idea you had no way of checking it for comparison sake?
Because I did have nothing to compare it with (when I posted the message). I wrote that first message when I was at work so by the time I came home I sat down and tried to figure out a way to benchtest them. So when my reply above to Tekin/Castle was posted, I had just figured out that comparison and thought it was a good test.

As for your pinion comment: I have a 22T, 23T and I think a 24T Mini LST pinion (22T suggested by Kav). I also have the MRS4 9T and 12T and 13T (still in bag). I use what I have available to me.

Keep in mind, we race in the basement of a Legion. It is not a professional track by any sorts. Duct tape holds down the carpet. Hop onto Youtube and search NRCC and look around for the videos. Then you will see where we race.


Anyhoo, to make things short and sweet, Tekin figures the wrong sticker is on it and they want to bench it for me and replace. Just bad luck that I possibly had a boxed / labelled wrong motor and not really an issue with the motor.

Case closed. Should have stuck with Castle.


Kav - the 4400 is back in the car. So rather then buy another motor to race against myself for a season, I'am just going to run that and not worry about it anymore.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
Just seemed odd that you would come with that after I suggested it.
Hmm, maybe I had just overlooked what you had said. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
I don't know what cars those are, though they sure are noisey, but using a micro motor on that size of track it would be my guess that you'd never need a pinion that large.
The noisey ones, probably the Tamiya M class of chassis. Yeah they are noisey as all heck. Stock everything on those cars. I don't think there were any videos of the pan / recoil race (aka only 3 cars). Otherwise the larger cars are all the touring cars (1/10th) scale. I also just noticed that there were some new videos recently updated under the same title of NRCC. Not sure if those were the videos you were looking at? There are vids from last year as well on Youtube.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RERacing View Post
That is entirely possible, I've had it happen with a Castle motor too.
(just so you know, same manufacturer makes both of their motors)
Interesting. I did not know that. Thanks.

I would love to have an entire list of who makes what for who. Just to find out how many parts are really all the same. Probably 5 companies make parts for 20 r/c companies kind of thing.. heh.
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:21 AM
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Ok .. turns out my 8100kv motor dyno'd @ 6895 rpm per volt. So yeah, it was stickered incorrectly. Must have been a Friday night or something..

Needless to say, i'll have a new one sent up my way within a week or so.

Now, do I put it into my recoil... or my micro..hah.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:02 PM
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I have the HXT 4400 kv motor as well. It works great. I use the 24 tooth pinion and it barely gets hot on 3S! I can't imagine needing more speed. Are you required to use 2S in the races? I could see needing to go to a higher kv motor in that situation.
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